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A question about a quote in a xword

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cheapcookies:
Just wondering. I have embedded a ~30 word quote inside a 21x21. To accomplish it and keep it tidy, I had to break it up substantially. The word 'the' is in the quote 3 times and there is nothing I can do about that. Also, I had to put some of the words on their own, ie, 'the' is by itself twice and so are a few others. There are 14 clue lines about this quote and 6 of the answers are in long rows across (18, 13 across etc). The quote is really catchy and worthy of publication.

Am I breaking any conventions that will prevent this puzzle from being considered?

Also, minor question: I kept the words as clean as I could, but ended up with (2) 3-letter answers that I couldn't iron out of the puzzle, try as I did. They are ERT and ROR ... They are sandwiched down between the quote letters. ERT is emergency response team in public safety lingo and ROR is a modern twist of LOL as a quick haha online.

Are these going to kill the puzzle?

Thanks. I appreciate thoughtful replies.

-cc

Wheels12:
I don't know enough about crossword construction to answer your main question. I would think it would be fine, but that's just my instinct.

I don't understand how "ROR" is an online laugh, so that would potentially annoy me as a solver. I'd suggest cluing ROR as an abbreviation of "released on one's own recognizance," which is a common outcome at a bail hearing. "ROR" itself is a very common abbreviation in this context, even used as a verb ("the judge ror-ed him"). Even clued this way, ROR may cause some consternation, but I think this is better than the online laugh clue, unless I'm missing something.

cheapcookies:
Thanks for your thoughts, appreciated. The first hit back on ROR was 'raugh out roud' and I suspect it's a supposed to be how an Asian would pronounce LOL. Don't agree with it or condone it, but that was the first hit back. I like your ROR idea better and have been racking my brain on how to twist it into enough of a pun while not offending anybody.

I thought of something like 'How a lion cub talks to his father' but that's far fetched also. ROR is a lousy word in any case and I tried to get it out of there, but the necessity of putting the quote where it is has tied my hands. Ditto for ERT.

The way the quote is worded is very, very worthy and I'm wondering if a small sin or two will preclude it from publication. Shortz gets his pick of the elite puzzles and I don't want one or two 3-letter seldom-used words to kill it. That's why I'm wondering what experiences others have had when they are in the same position.

-cc

Glenn9999:

--- Quote from: cheapcookies on January 21, 2020, 08:53:29 AM ---To accomplish it and keep it tidy, I had to break it up substantially. . . Also, I had to put some of the words on their own, ie, 'the' is by itself twice and so are a few others.

Am I breaking any conventions that will prevent this puzzle from being considered?

--- End quote ---

If you have to do this and can't get the quote into a few contiguous pieces that would work with the symmetry of the puzzle, it'd be better to scrap the whole idea.


--- Quote from: cheapcookies on January 21, 2020, 08:53:29 AM ---Also, minor question: I kept the words as clean as I could, but ended up with (2) 3-letter answers that I couldn't iron out of the puzzle, try as I did. They are ERT and ROR

Are these going to kill the puzzle?

--- End quote ---

Usually this kind of thing is a good sign that your grid is too theme-heavy.  Your quote probably is too long, if I had to guess.  Or you have entries that you are loving and not wanting to get rid of.  Outside of your forced entries (the theme), you should be able to work these things out.

Overall, what I'm seeing doesn't show much promise for this puzzle being a good quality finish, and my suggestion would be to rethink the theme.

cheapcookies:
Hi Glenn,

You are right, the quote is too long. It's more of a quip than an actual verbatim quote. The ending of the quip compliments the beginning and shortening it more than a couple of words takes the zest out of it. The theme is somewhat unique and if I were to change the theme, I might as well start from square one on a differently themed puzzle.

That said, the puzzle has been finished for a while now (overall, it's tidy with solid words) and has been sitting here waiting for me to either submit it and take my chances or just leave it. I recounted the number of words in the quip and it is 30. Fitting a 30-word quote inside any puzzle is a challenge to even the most experienced constructors. Fitting it contiguously is very difficult, if not close to impossible for that many words IMHO.

I'll sit on it for a while longer, but I'm not going to disassemble it and start over. Framing up a 21x21 can be a pain, coming up with a fresh theme is also not always easy ... But I'm to the point where the fill is not the biggest headache anymore, and that is a good place to be.

The reason I asked is that I see Shortz allowing some unconventional non-symmetric puzzles in lately, and I was wondering how unconventional he'd go if he saw one that grabbed his attention.

Thanks for your thoughts. Appreciated.

-cc

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